Other people’s questions

Steve 0:15 A lot of the stuff that I took for granted from other people, I'm like, "Oh, this is actually ta- quite time-consuming."

Kunal 0:20 We need to build you an AI-

Steve 0:21 Yeah

Kunal 0:22 ... that's just gonna do all of this.

Steve 0:23 Yeah, ex- yeah, actually, the, I interacted with your AI bot last night. I was so-

Kunal 0:27 Oh, yeah, yeah

Steve 0:27 ... impressed

Kunal 0:28 We should use it as well.

Steve 0:29 Yeah, yeah.

Kunal 0:29 Okay, I'll pull it up.

Steve 0:30 Okay.

Kunal 0:30 Yeah.

Steve 0:30 So how, wh- what's the best way to, to just, to pose questions to it and-

Kunal 0:35 Yeah, I mean, if you wanna pull it up too, like-

Steve 0:37 Yeah, let's do it

Kunal 0:37 ... we can, you can ask it a question and ask me the same question, and then-

Steve 0:41 And see sort of where it ends up.

Kunal 0:43 Yeah, yeah.

Steve 0:43 Okay, that's cool.

Kunal 0:44 Yeah.

Steve 0:44 I like that idea.

Kunal 0:45 Yeah.

Steve 0:45 Yeah. So, um, yeah. So I, uh, I read your book. Um, I've only read the first one, How To Live, and, uh, I was struck by a few things. The first one was when do you qualify to give advice or write a book? Like, what was in your mind that said like, "Now's the time for me to share this"?

Kunal 1:08 So writing, writing a book is, um... It's an immortality project 'cause it's, it's gonna last beyond me.

Steve 1:16 Hmm.

Kunal 1:17 My body will die at some point, hopefully not anytime soon.

Steve 1:20 Yeah, I hope not.

Kunal 1:21 But the, but the, the book will continue.

Steve 1:23 Yeah.

Kunal 1:24 Uh, I don't have kids yet, but I can only think of, like, those two things.

Steve 1:28 Yeah.

Kunal 1:29 Kids and a book-

Steve 1:30 Yeah

Kunal 1:30 ... that will outlive me.

Steve 1:32 And the kids will kind of water down a bit, right? Like-

Kunal 1:36 Yeah

Steve 1:36 ... they're not gonna absorb everything-

Kunal 1:38 That's true. Yeah

Steve 1:38 ... that you have in them. They'll like have their own ideas.

Kunal 1:40 Yeah, yeah.

Steve 1:40 Like, they won't-

Kunal 1:41 Yeah

Steve 1:41 ... distill information well.

Kunal 1:42 And they'll make up stories about me- ... long after I'm gone.

Steve 1:45 Yeah, yeah.

Kunal 1:46 And have the grandkids and great whatever.

Steve 1:49 Hmm.

Kunal 1:49 Um, so it really requires me to feel solid about my ideas or my experiences to be willing to put it out there in the world forever.

Steve 2:01 Yeah.

Kunal 2:02 In this era of Snapchat and Instagram where things disappear-

Steve 2:06 Yeah

Kunal 2:06 ... uh, a book is the, the opposite.

Steve 2:10 Yeah. I, I've, um, definitely developed my reading later, and I'm, I'm sorry I didn't appreciate how much it teaches you. I think that reading was predominantly entertainment, um, for me when I was younger, or like a necessary evil. And as I've gotten older, I'm like, oh, wow, there's just so much that you can learn or so much you can, um, sort of take from other people's experiences without having to go through that same stuff. And, um, and the right books become immediately applicable. Like, my favorite book is The Little Prince.

Kunal 2:43 Yeah.

Steve 2:43 Like, it's a child's book, but-

Kunal 2:45 Yeah

Steve 2:45 ... um, and also, uh, Tuesdays with Morrie is like-

Kunal 2:47 Yes

Steve 2:47 ... another one which-

Kunal 2:48 Yeah

Steve 2:48 ... kind of-

Kunal 2:49 I love that book.

Steve 2:50 Yeah, incredible. And, and, you know, once you've become really good at reading or proficient at it, you become much better at, like, internalizing what you're-

Kunal 2:58 And applying it

Steve 2:59 ... yeah, what you're applying. Did you find that writing the book, you're, um, you were able to distill your thoughts really well? You were able to, like, really-

Kunal 3:07 Oh, yeah. I mean, it was 51% for me.

Steve 3:09 Okay.

Kunal 3:10 49% for sharing.

Steve 3:11 Yeah.

Kunal 3:12 I didn't realize that going into it. Going into it, I thought it was 99%, but sharing 1% for me.

Steve 3:17 Mm-hmm.

Kunal 3:17 But, and that's why the second... There's actually a third book that's done as well. It's not printed yet. And it's so therapeutic 'cause it forces me to be clear about what do I believe. And that knowledge is very helpful for me as I'm living still-

Steve 3:33 Hmm

Kunal 3:33 ... and the choices I'm making.

Steve 3:36 No, it makes sense. I, I've, um, I've worked with a coach, and one thing that came out of it is, like, writing down what I really think about things, and I think that I often walk away from exchanges with people frustrated that I haven't articulated myself very well.

Kunal 3:53 Hmm.

Steve 3:53 And I'm like, and you walk away and you're like- ... "I should have said this" or "I should have said that." And the practice of writing down what you think about things forces you to face your argument, first of all, so you understand what your argument is.

Kunal 4:07 Yeah.

Steve 4:08 And then it puts it out there for debate, which is, like, the next thing. And, um, and that for me is, like, a big part of writing. And did you journal before this, or have you always journaled?

Kunal 4:18 I was just gonna ask you, do you journal?

Steve 4:19 I don't. I, I, I've... Sporadically I've dabbled in journaling-

Kunal 4:24 Yeah, yeah

Steve 4:24 ... but it's never been a consistent habit.

Kunal 4:26 I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask my, my alter ego. What do we call it? Do you journal?

Steve 4:29 Your, your digital ego.

Kunal 4:31 Yeah. So I have been journaling for almost 10 years, almost every day.

Steve 4:36 Okay.

Kunal 4:37 So I literally put pen to paper five out of seven days a week for the last 10 years.

Steve 4:43 Wow.

Kunal 4:43 And-

Steve 4:43 And is that a morning practice, or when does that practice happen?

Kunal 4:46 Morning, yeah.

Steve 4:46 Okay.

Kunal 4:47 Morning, meditate, post meditation. It's, it's unconscious. It just happens habitually. Some warm herbal tea and, uh... I use morning pages as a technique, if you're familiar with that.

Steve 4:58 No, I'm not, so tell me a bit more.

Kunal 5:00 Very simple. Few sheets of paper. I use a remarkable tablet.

Steve 5:03 Mm-hmm.

Kunal 5:04 And you just write without stopping.

Steve 5:07 Okay.

Kunal 5:07 So there's no moment to pause and think and frame and censor. Like, even as I'm speaking now, something is censoring everything I'm saying. The part of the morning pages technique is to write without stopping such that you bypass the censor, and then it taps into a stream of consciousness. The second part is to throw it out once you're done reading, which is counterintuitive. My hack on that is I write... I can't even read it, it's so messy, 'cause I'm writing so fast-

Steve 5:35 Oh, wow

Kunal 5:35 ... and so small that nobody will ever see what I wrote, including me.

Steve 5:42 Okay.

Kunal 5:42 So it's free of judgment. So I've created this space to really express whatever's inside.

Steve 5:49 Wow.

Kunal 5:49 And the process of morning pages makes me aware of what's actually inside.

Steve 5:54 Oh, that's incredible. So that, that for me is, like, really incredible because when we're talking we're kind of thinking out loud, right? Like, we're not really- We're not presenting our thoughts in a structured way. We're kind of-

Kunal 6:07 Yeah

Steve 6:07 ... getting them out into the open-

Kunal 6:08 Yeah

Steve 6:08 ... so that we can start to put them-

Kunal 6:10 Yeah

Steve 6:10 ... in, in place.

Kunal 6:12 Yeah.

Steve 6:12 And, um, and writing it down is a very private way to do it, right? Like, is to get that written down, and then start to go from there. And then what's the process after that? Is it just like this, is it like a cathartic release of everything, or is there some actionable that you take away from it after disposing of it?

Kunal 6:31 This, you might have picked up on this in the, in the book, but I, I believe that it's all about awareness and cultivating the skill of awareness, and I, I believe awareness is a skill.

Steve 6:39 Mm-hmm.

Kunal 6:39 And it's one that can be taught, and learned, and trained, and I hope that young people, you know, get, get, get taught it more. And mindfulness practices are one way, but there's many ways to cultivate the skill of awareness. I believe like 90% of it is awareness, and with awareness, the 10% action becomes almost automatic. Like, if I'm aware of somebody that needs help, I will automatically start to lean in and, and try to help them. If I'm aware of a business opportunity, I will automatically start to consider that opportunity. If I'm aware of a challenge or a physical injury, then I'll start to take action based on that. So my bias is towards awareness over action. Action comes as a byproduct of, of awareness.

Steve 7:23 Mm-hmm.

Kunal 7:24 So journaling is one technique to help me become more aware of what I think.

Steve 7:29 Yeah. That, that, it's, um, it's, it's almost like physical meditation because you're linked to a pen onto a piece of paper, and I know that you're, you're very versed in meditation. It was like a-

Kunal 7:39 Yeah

Steve 7:40 ... pretty rough journey to start-

Kunal 7:41 It was

Steve 7:42 ... starting in a foreign la- it was a foreign language, right? It was at the yoga-

Kunal 7:44 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Steve 7:44 ... retreat that like you-

Kunal 7:45 Yeah

Steve 7:45 ... you, you get into meditation. It wasn't for you. It was always this other thing, and then now you can sit for three hours, uh, what, every Sat- is it every Saturday you sit for three hours, or is it, uh-

Kunal 7:55 I don't anymore, but yeah, that was my framework. Something-

Steve 7:58 Oh, your birthday was a three-hour-

Kunal 8:00 Three hours, yes

Steve 8:00 ... three-hour meditation-

Kunal 8:01 Yes

Steve 8:01 ... right?

Kunal 8:01 Yes.

Steve 8:02 That's great.

Kunal 8:02 Yeah.

Steve 8:02 Okay.

Kunal 8:02 Yeah. The simple framework is something daily, something weekly that's a bit more involved, be it a longer meditation or something with others.

Steve 8:10 Mm-hmm.

Kunal 8:11 And then, you know, monthly or bi-monthly a retreat or some form of, um, environment that really allows me to go deeper.

Steve 8:19 And that's, that's again linked to awareness. I mean, like my very basic understanding of meditation, and I have done it in the, the, as far as like 10 minutes a day for like a, a stint, so I haven't, I'm not... I know enough to know how much I don't know in terms of meditation. But the, the, some of the guide- guided meditation that I've had was like your mind wandering is an okay thing. Don't like try to beat it up about not being focused or being able to quiet the noise.

Kunal 8:49 Mm-hmm.

Steve 8:49 It's to acknowledge the noise, and then guide yourself back from the noise, or to try go deep into why is this noise, or why is my brain like a monkey? So I've had that very like sort of understanding of meditation and so just linking that back to the, to the journaling and the writing, or to the, to the daily pages is, is that again, just let it go and then work-

Kunal 9:13 It's all-

Steve 9:13 ... back from there

Kunal 9:13 ... it's all the same.

Steve 9:14 All, all the way.

Kunal 9:15 It's all the same. Meditation is not not thinking. Meditation is about becoming aware of the thinking.

Steve 9:22 Mm-hmm.

Kunal 9:22 It's not about trying to stop, control, or shape the thinking or direct the thinking. Same thing with morning pages and journals. It's not about trying to direct the journaling. Let me journal about this business problem that's on my mind, or let me journal about this emotion that's coming up. It's, it's to allow whatever is there, because that is what is there.

Steve 9:40 Mm-hmm.

Kunal 9:41 And then you can apply that beyond the practice to life.

Steve 9:43 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Kunal 9:45 Um, and all these practices are called practices. They're practices for the moments we're not practicing and we're on the field, which is everyday living.

Steve 9:54 Makes sense. Like I, I know just in terms of practice, and it's m- maybe some way relatable, is um, when you do martial arts, the idea is to really work on the technique of it because when you're under pressure, 50% of the technique goes away because that's just how we are responding in a stressful situation.

Kunal 10:18 Mm-hmm.

Steve 10:18 But if I've practiced-

Kunal 10:20 You have 50%

Steve 10:20 ... my remaining 50% is really good.

Kunal 10:23 It's good enough to get you through.

Steve 10:23 It's good enough to get you through whatever you, you need to get through.

Kunal 10:27 It's the same thing with meditation-

Steve 10:28 Meditation

Kunal 10:28 ... and journaling. Yeah. I'm, I'm actually working on a- another book. It's called Unmeditate. You're the first person I'm sharing that with.

Steve 10:34 Ah, thank you.

Kunal 10:35 And it's, it's the ideas of meditation and mindfulness applied to everyday living.

Steve 10:40 Okay.

Kunal 10:40 So it's a bit of an anti-meditation book. Um, 10 years into the practice, six plus years as a teacher now.

Steve 10:47 Mm-hmm.

Kunal 10:47 I've learned a lot. I've meditated with ten- tens of thousands of people. And uh, the formal practice of meditation as we know it, to sit on the floor, eyes closed, cross-legged, is not for everyone.

Steve 10:58 Mm-hmm.

Kunal 10:58 I used to believe it was for everyone, and I-

Steve 11:00 And you just had to learn how to do it.

Kunal 11:02 Yeah.

Steve 11:02 Yeah.

Kunal 11:02 It's just about more practice, more willpower, more discipline, and I don't believe that anymore.

Steve 11:08 Yeah. Well, so what is the change now? Is that-

Kunal 11:11 It's the qualities, it's the principles of meditation that are the value. It's not the practice.

Steve 11:17 Yeah.

Kunal 11:17 The practice is one way to understand those principles, but I've come to learn there's many other ways as well. So that's what Unmeditate is going to be about, is how to bring the, how to... It's mindfulness applied-

Steve 11:30 Yeah

Kunal 11:30 ... versus mindfulness in, in theory or in practice.

Steve 11:33 So I think that like that quality component is so important because life's crazy at the moment. Everything's kind of being funneled into fast bite, quick service, like really short, and I think that's eroding quality in some way. So now we have to maximize quality in different settings, and so being able to sort of distill quality in everything that you're doing-

Kunal 11:57 Yeah

Steve 11:58 ... is, uh, is the new skill.

Kunal 11:59 Yeah.

Steve 12:00 Yeah.

Kunal 12:00 Yeah. Is to, is to appreciate whatever is there.

Steve 12:05 Yeah.

Kunal 12:05 There's always gonna be something shinier or something that's-

Steve 12:08 Yeah

Kunal 12:08 ... around the corner.

Steve 12:09 Well, we're speaking about this as entrepreneurs. It's like, ah, this is idea. I'm definitely gonna do this thing.

Kunal 12:13 Yeah.

Steve 12:14 So it's crazy.

Kunal 12:15 Yeah.

Steve 12:16 I wanted to just go back to the How To Live, um, specifically 'cause I, it's your first book, right?

Kunal 12:21 This is the first book. A long time coming.

Steve 12:23 And, um, yeah, a long time coming, but now you've gone from first book straight into three. Uh, I'll come back to, like, just the, the, the prolific writer that you're now going into. But one thing that I took away from the book is that it seemed to me you climbed this mountain, you took a step back and said, "Okay, well, I'm here. I don't really feel better, and now I'm gonna start doing these experiments on myself." And if there was a common denominator in the experiments, it was abstinence from comfort or exposure to a little bit of what I call the suck. And it... That for me was the most, like, intriguing part is like, can you only do that once you've climbed the mountain of success?

Steve 13:09 Like, you're in a position where you're financially comfortable, your business is doing what it needs to do. Uh, all these things are kind of working. Now I can really start messing with the engine. Is, is that it, or do you feel that this is applicable to anyone no matter where they are in their sort of journey?

Kunal 13:27 Yeah, the, the stories in my, my life comes from a place of privilege, of never having to really feel like I've suffered, so life gets boring. So then I do these experiments ... to try to make it more interesting. Like moving to Portugal, I moved here on three days notice.

Steve 13:47 Yeah. I remember when I met you here. This was this crazy story.

Kunal 13:49 And you know, I'm single, don't have kids, so I, I can make decisions like that. Um, but I, uh, I recognize the privilege in that life has felt comfortable for me, so I've tried to spice it up. The lesson that I hope people take away from, from How To Live isn't the specific tactics of how I went houseless or how I went two years without buying anything or meditated, you know, for 10 years every day. It's more about the openness to try something new, try something outside of my comfort zone.

Steve 14:21 Mm.

Kunal 14:21 With the... So, like, the word experiment, there's just one line in the book, it's probably one of my favorite lines, where I said, like, "An experiment means I don't know what's going to happen. If I know what's going to happen, that's called a plan."

Steve 14:33 Yeah. Makes sense.

Kunal 14:34 So the difference between planning and experimenting, I think we plan a lot. Uh, I'm gonna get into this university, or I'm going to close these clients, or I'm going to, you know, have this body, you know, weight. Um, so we plan a lot. But to truly experiment means... Like, the precondition means I'm open to the result.

Steve 14:56 Yeah.

Kunal 14:56 Like in a truly, like, scientist experimenting in the lab.

Steve 14:59 Yeah. 'Cause it's not a hypothesis yet, right? You're just-

Kunal 15:02 I don't know

Steve 15:03 ... I'm completely gonna expose element A to element B-

Kunal 15:06 Yeah

Steve 15:06 ... and see-

Kunal 15:07 See what happens

Steve 15:07 ... what happens.

Kunal 15:08 See what happens.

Steve 15:09 Um, I think that that's venturing into the unknown, like the old saying is like, you know, sort of growth begins, like, outside of your comfort zone. And the one thing that, like, really struck me in the book was when you gave up your home. And I'm going into a place of, like... I've traveled the world, I've lived in a lot of places, I've been very comfortable with going out and setting up and s- doing startups, and it's crazy. But now I'm going into a place in my life where, like, home is-

Kunal 15:40 Yeah

Steve 15:40 ... a big deal.

Kunal 15:41 Yeah.

Steve 15:41 And I've got kids.

Kunal 15:42 Yeah.

Steve 15:42 And stability is a big one, and h- you know, the structures around our day-to-day are, like, really important to me. Like, I lose my mind if I lose structure. And when you had your kind of breakdown, you know, in the street crying, like-

Kunal 15:56 Yeah

Steve 15:56 ... homeless guy.

Kunal 15:58 Yeah.

Steve 15:58 And that for me was like, it really hit me in the book. I was like-

Kunal 16:02 Mm

Steve 16:02 ... this would be in the ultimate suck for me. Like, it's a big panic. I realized for me, not having a home is suddenly a big driver or a big panic for me in my life. Um, were there any other moments where you're like, "This experiment's just too much"?

Kunal 16:18 So many.

Steve 16:19 Yeah.

Kunal 16:20 And then I had to remind myself this is what I was looking for.

Steve 16:23 Mm.

Kunal 16:23 I was trying to find the edge. I was trying to find where's my boundary.

Steve 16:28 Mm.

Kunal 16:28 And I don't know where it is until I get very close to it. When I get close to it, it feels unpleasant and uncomfortable and frustrating. There's a part of me that, uh, will judge myself and criticize myself for, like, "Why am I doing this?" And question it, and then that other part is important to balance it, to say like, "Actually, you, you wanted to find the edge."

Steve 16:50 Yeah.

Kunal 16:50 "And here is the edge."

Steve 16:51 And do you still do that? Like, has now that become practice for you? Is that, like, the standard for you now?

Kunal 16:57 I do like to go to the edge. I don't like that I like to go to the edge.

Steve 17:02 Yes.

Kunal 17:02 Um, like last week during, during Web Summit, you came on, I think it was Sunday, right?

Steve 17:07 It is.

Kunal 17:07 Yeah. So Saturday night there was a full party at my place, and Monday and Tuesday and Wednesday.

Steve 17:14 Okay.

Kunal 17:14 And it was, um, it was too much.

Steve 17:17 Wow.

Kunal 17:18 Um, and then we gave out, you know, a couple thousand copies of the book throughout Web Summit, and I spoke at 12 events. And I was with my therapist earlier today, so that's why it's top of mind, but it was, it was too much, and it was like, "Why did I do all that? I didn't need to."

Steve 17:34 Yeah.

Kunal 17:34 But I, I guess I did need to, 'cause I needed to find where my edge was.

Steve 17:38 So, so that was about finding the edge. Like, it-

Kunal 17:40 Yeah

Steve 17:40 ... wasn't about, "Hey, I've got to get this book into as many hands as possible." It was like-

Kunal 17:45 Yeah, it's this entrepreneurial curiosity-

Steve 17:47 Curiosity

Kunal 17:47 ... creativity to say yes-

Steve 17:50 Yeah

Kunal 17:50 ... to, to life. And it's, it's beautiful. It's beautiful to say yes to life.

Steve 17:54 Yes.

Kunal 17:54 It's so much easier to say no.

Steve 17:56 Yeah. Makes sense. And yeah, it is, it is, and a- but that's the daunting piece. And I think that people think that they're living when they're just stuck in the rut, but actually that's not where the, the... That's existing. Like, the difference between living and existing. And I think, um, you know, why do you think so many people get so caught in, like, the existing piece? Like, they don't go out to the- ... the living component that drives new awareness in them and happier, happier lives.

Kunal 18:21 I think we need to be inspired first, and we need to be shown that it's possible. So a number of the, the stories I shared my source of inspiration at the start.

Steve 18:31 Hmm.

Kunal 18:32 So... And hopefully this book inspires people not to do what I did, but to do their own version-

Steve 18:37 Yeah

Kunal 18:37 ... of, of living, whatever that looks like.

Steve 18:39 Yeah, definitely, like, it awakened in me the question of, "Am I? Have I become complacent? Am I still asking, you know, the right questions of myself?" Like, I, I know that my DNA has always been about, "Oh, I wanna do an Ironman. Okay, I'm gonna do that." Like-

Kunal 19:00 Yeah, yeah

Steve 19:00 ... it was like, not I didn't focus too much on the why I shouldn't. It was just like, "I should totally do that. That's... It'll be hard, but I, I'll get over that. And let me go live in another country, and let me go and experience, like, a new culture." And, "Oh, it's a startup. It's got, like, terrible, terrible, like, sort of stability options for it." "But I'm gonna go and give that thing a bash." You know? Let me go and do these, like, crazy things. And I... And yeah, your priorities do change a lot as you get older and you sort of, you, you pick up sort of responsibility. Um, you know, I, I just think, uh, the book really for me was one of these, like, thought-provoking, am I doing enough with my life? Am I still setting an example for my kids of a life I want them to follow?

Steve 19:46 So it, it, it may be a work and more of the teacher in me. Like, I wanna-

Kunal 19:52 Hmm

Steve 19:52 ... be a teacher in this now.

Kunal 19:53 Hmm.

Steve 19:53 Like, and-

Kunal 19:54 Hmm

Steve 19:54 ... you know, so I, I think I wanna write a book. Like, I, I don't know what I'll write a book on, but I was like, "Geez, this is really cool that you wrote a book. I've always been so scared to write a book." Uh, like, there must be an element of fear in writing a book.

Kunal 20:05 There's an element of vulnerability.

Steve 20:07 Okay.

Kunal 20:07 So my birthday at the end of August, uh, I gave 100 people a copy of... a preview copy of the book. It's still in draft. And I felt it. I felt it in my chest. I felt exposed.

Steve 20:19 Mm-hmm.

Kunal 20:20 And these are people that I invited to celebrate my, my birthday with me. Even last week we gave out 2,000 copies of the book-

Steve 20:25 Yeah

Kunal 20:26 ... for free around the office.

Steve 20:27 Yeah, you're out there now.

Kunal 20:28 And that, that felt... I mean, the birthday's one thing. Every- everybody knows me, and they're gonna say it's a great book, and they like me regardless.

Steve 20:35 Yeah.

Kunal 20:36 But then last week was, like, really to strangers, and that feels vulnerable.

Steve 20:41 That's-

Kunal 20:41 But that's, that's how I wanna grow.

Steve 20:43 But is there anon- an anonymity in, in that too, right? Like, "Here's my book. You're a stranger. Off you go."

Kunal 20:51 I don't, I don't care what you think.

Steve 20:53 Yeah.

Steve 20:55 Like, it's like- ... what are they gonna do, you know? Like, your, your close friends, I, like, I get the vulnerability in terms of, like-

Kunal 21:01 Yeah

Steve 21:02 ... that is, um, you're sharing with them, right? Like, a very personal stuff, and we often put a persona up for people.

Kunal 21:08 Yeah. I mean, for, for, for me, I'm, I'm evolving from... And I'm, I'm Canadian and grew up very much Canadian, which means Canadians like to be liked, like thank United Nations and thank you-

Steve 21:20 Must be a South African being too, 'cause I'm the same.

Kunal 21:22 Yeah.

Steve 21:22 Yeah.

Kunal 21:23 Like, yeah, Canada or South Africa's role in the world is, like, we're, we're very well liked, um, by everybody. Like, the joke is people put Can- Canada flag patches on their backpacks even when they're not Canadian 'cause that they'll be treated better- ... than if they have, like, an American patch or something.

Steve 21:40 Note, note to self, next tattoo.

Kunal 21:43 Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So being liked is something that's, uh, core to my identity, and that means I'm watching what I'm saying, that means I'm politically correct, that means I'm nice to everybody. Um, I'm now moving into this place of, like, being more known, and with that, maybe not always liked. And that's kind of a conscious choice that I've been making over the summer, is realize, okay, with the book coming out, with the multiple books, with the other projects I'm involved with, my profile's gonna grow, and not everybody may like me, and I need to learn to be okay with that.

Steve 22:21 Yeah, that's a big one.

Kunal 22:22 And not take it personally.

Steve 22:23 Yeah. I, I'm reading a book, um, uh, I sort of bounce between a few books, but The, The Courage to Be Disliked, and the, the basic summary, very basic summary is that we build things to shortcut from having to deal with certain things. So, um, wanting to be liked is just a shortcut because that's easier than having to address someone on a level where, "No, I don't... I'm gonna engage with you on something that I disagree with."

Kunal 22:52 Yeah.

Steve 22:52 "Or I'm gonna en-..." I, like, for mine is, my shortcut is losing my temper. If I lose my temper and I raise my voice, you back down, we don't have to talk about this anymore, right? Like, and so I've obviously learned that at a very young age because it was maybe a mechanism for dealing with bullying, and it was like, "Okay, if people are a bit scared of me, then I don't have to deal with that anymore," right? Like, and so that it, it created some, like a ring fence around me.

Kunal 23:19 Yeah.

Steve 23:20 And so I think maybe being liked is kind of the same thing. You're saying, "Well, if I like you, you will always take my feedback well," or, "We don't have to, like, really get into stuff," or, "Maybe you'll never tell me stuff that's gonna be hurtful to me because that's-"

Kunal 23:33 Yeah.

Steve 23:33 "... that's it, so."

Kunal 23:34 And it's evolutionary too.

Steve 23:36 Yeah.

Kunal 23:36 Like, if we're liked, we're more likely to survive.

Steve 23:38 Yeah.

Kunal 23:38 And a big part of being human in our genetics is survival.

Steve 23:44 Yeah.

Kunal 23:45 So I think as we now have moved past the basic need survival, we're starting to pay more attention to and starting to experiment a bit with, like, okay, the things that have been naturally occurring for survival purposes don't actually need them anymore-

Steve 24:01 Mm

Kunal 24:01 ... not to the same degree, so let me experiment with-

Steve 24:05 Yeah

Kunal 24:05 ... flexing it a little bit.

Steve 24:06 And why do you say that you don't need them anymore?

Kunal 24:10 We don't have to be liked to be able to have a place to live and to have food to eat and whatnot.

Steve 24:15 Yeah.

Kunal 24:15 But maybe a thousand years ago we did.

Steve 24:18 Yeah. Yeah, so there's now it's like the, the act of being liked is really about community, right? Or, or loneliness, not necessarily about fitting in.

Kunal 24:27 Yeah.

Steve 24:28 Um, so that changes a bit. I, and Jordan Peterson talks about that a, a little bit is that, you know, we start to condition each other from when we're children. So at two or- two years old, you're a complete terror, and- ... you, you're testing your environment in every possible way.

Kunal 24:43 Yeah.

Steve 24:43 You- my son literally headbutts me- ... whenever he gets excited. He's like, he's literally like, "I'm gonna test you now." And it's a tough one because I can't headbutt him back, you know? But they do. They, they, they, they, they terrorize their surroundings and, but then their peer group pulls them back in because if you do that to a two-year-old, you bite another two-year-old, the other two-year-old's gonna bite you back-

Kunal 25:05 Yeah

Steve 25:05 ... and you're gonna realize, actually, okay, to fit in here-

Kunal 25:08 Yeah, yeah, yeah

Steve 25:08 ... that's not a good-

Kunal 25:09 Yeah

Steve 25:09 ... thing that I want. And so we, we condition ourselves from very young to fit into the, into the crowd or to fit, to fit into the village. And like you said, now it's changing. Uh, it's changing quite a bit, so now we can start to, like, really define ourselves in terms of what do we need, and live a life based on what we, what we need.

Kunal 25:29 Yeah.

Steve 25:30 I think the worry is it could just get a bit selfish.

Kunal 25:33 I think we all are selfish, and I think selfish has a bad reputation.

Steve 25:40 Okay.

Kunal 25:40 Everything we do is to satisfy some need or desire we have.

Steve 25:44 True.

Kunal 25:45 I got into this the other night with a close friend. And, you know, he was talking about how he's helping his, his mother with something. You know, like, "That's selfish." He's like, "What are you talking about?" Like, yeah, there's some need you have to be a good son.

Steve 25:58 True.

Kunal 25:59 And yes, there's a need the other person have as- has as well, so you're satisfying both your needs. But there is a, there is a self-motive behind every action that we take, and I think it's better and healthier to just acknowledge that so when it shows up, we're not surprised.

Steve 26:17 Yeah. And when you need to pull some of it back. Like, that's the other thing is, like, you have a win-win exchange with your parents. I'll do some- I'm a good son.

Kunal 26:26 Yeah.

Steve 26:26 You have a good son.

Kunal 26:26 Yeah.

Steve 26:27 But you're gonna get what you need. I wanna get... But at some point- ... you're gonna have to draw a boundary. Like, okay, I have a new family. This is now, you know, like, too much.

Kunal 26:36 Yeah.

Steve 26:36 You're gonna have to pull back.

Kunal 26:37 Yeah, 'cause your needs have changed.

Steve 26:38 Your needs have changed, and that also has to be okay that people acknowledge, like, okay, well, this relationship now has changed, and it's okay for you to be selfish 'cause I was also being selfish, right? Like, if everyone just acknowledges that, like.

Kunal 26:50 Mm-hmm.

Steve 26:51 Um, something I always used to say to people that were in bad relationships, like, "You know, you're not dating that person for them."

Kunal 26:56 Yeah. Yeah.

Steve 26:56 You're dating that person-

Kunal 26:57 True, yeah

Steve 26:57 ... for yourself.

Kunal 26:58 Yeah. Yeah.

Steve 26:59 And if you're con- if you continue to stay in a bad relationship, it's absolutely crazy because then you've forgotten why you were there.

Kunal 27:05 Yeah.

Steve 27:06 Um, and uh, and, you know, you, you see that people just, like, rotating in the worst possible relationship.

Kunal 27:12 Mm.

Steve 27:12 One thing I wanted to ask you is that, um, the start of your book when you have kind of, uh, I think epiphany's the right word that, hey, things are really good, but don't feel that good.

Kunal 27:24 Yeah.

Steve 27:25 Uh, um, you were in a really happy relationship, and-

Kunal 27:27 Yeah

Steve 27:28 ... that changed. Was the change in your relationship because of this new awareness that you were finding in yourself, or was it inevitably going to, to end, that relationship?

Kunal 27:38 I don't know.

Steve 27:39 Okay.

Kunal 27:39 I've asked myself that, um, that a lot, and it almost doesn't matter anymore.

Steve 27:46 Mm-hmm.

Kunal 27:47 Um, because whatever the stimuli were at the time, they put me on this path to learn how to live as an adult.

Steve 27:56 Oh.

Kunal 27:56 We learn how to live as children through our parents and students and, and teachers and culture and religion, you know, and, and other sources. And then for me, that moment was like me saying, as an adult, I'm gonna figure out how to live, and do that the only way I know how as an engineer is to experiment and try things out.

Steve 28:14 Yeah.

Kunal 28:15 So along the way, my attitude towards relationships evolved and changed, and it, it still is. And uh, there were some experiments with relationships that I did not put in the book.

Steve 28:26 So not the one where you went, uh, whole, like, wardrobe shopping.

Steve 28:33 Yeah.

Kunal 28:33 I'm still waiting, uh, I'm still waiting to see if she read the book.

Steve 28:37 Oh.

Kunal 28:39 I saw her, I saw her, she sent a comment to me or something, some congratulations on the book, so I'm assuming that she might buy the book and-

Steve 28:45 Yeah

Kunal 28:45 ... realize she's in the opening chapter.

Steve 28:48 Okay. She doesn't get to the bottom where you sent me down this, like, retail addiction.

Steve 28:56 Nice. Um, yeah, I, I kind of lost my train of thought but, uh, you know, I wanted to just sort of dig a little bit more deeper. Towards the end of the book, you start, um, you started to talk about, like, how to die, and this is a subject that's very close to me at the moment. We've, you know, we've, we've had a passing in our family. My wife's, um, my wife's father just recently passed away. And um, so can you tell me more about that? I haven't read that chapter yet. So what, what is How to Die like?

Kunal 29:23 Yeah, so there's two parts to the chapter. Um, so first I'm, I'm sorry for the, the, the loss in the family.

Steve 29:28 Thank you.

Kunal 29:29 Uh, in the first part I talk about the, the loss of an uncle, and that forced... That was the closest I'd come to death as an adult.

Steve 29:36 Mm.

Kunal 29:37 Um, and it really forced me to understand. I had understood it intellectually, but to experience it and see it in my parents and, and all that, uh, was a, was a trigger for me to reflect on it. And realizing, like, when somebody close to us, um, passes, their body passes, and that's a science, biology thing we could rationalize.

Steve 29:59 Mm.

Kunal 29:59 Could be from disease or illness or just old age or an accident or something. But what they mean to us isn't resident in their body. What they mean to us is resident in-

Steve 30:12 Mm

Kunal 30:12 ... our spirit, our mind, our memories. Mostly our memories.

Steve 30:16 Yeah.

Kunal 30:17 And the imprints on how we move through life. So that hasn't died.

Steve 30:22 Yeah.

Kunal 30:22 That hasn't passed away. So that's, that's kind of my, my offering is to really- Focus on the quality, back to that-

Steve 30:31 Yes

Kunal 30:31 ... that, that word, and know that the quality stays within all the people that were infected with that quality.

Steve 30:38 Yeah.

Kunal 30:39 And that quality continues, and that quality's actually what we value.

Steve 30:42 Yeah.

Kunal 30:43 It's actually what we remember. Um, the science of a body decaying and becoming old, that's-

Steve 30:49 Yeah

Kunal 30:49 ... that's an intellectual thing.

Steve 30:51 Yeah. Yeah, I, I think, um, you know, just on that is that presence gives you a strange comfort no matter what that is because you w- you are easier able to attach perception to them.

Kunal 31:06 Yeah.

Steve 31:06 Right? Like you've got a physical-

Kunal 31:08 You, you get to remind yourself-

Steve 31:09 Exactly

Kunal 31:09 ... on those qualities.

Steve 31:10 Exactly. So and that's what happens, right?

Kunal 31:12 Yeah.

Steve 31:12 You're like ... And then when you remove the physical presence, the body, like there's this sudden like loss of like, "Where do I attach this?" Right? Like it's ... A- and that for me is the, the abstract thing about-

Kunal 31:27 Yeah

Steve 31:27 ... someone passing is that-

Kunal 31:29 Do you have pictures of your, I guess, father-in-law-

Steve 31:31 Yeah

Kunal 31:31 ... in the, in the home?

Steve 31:32 Yeah. Yeah, we do. We do.

Kunal 31:34 So I, I, I think there's something to that and like it's like now I understand why there's all those pictures of my grandparents. As a kid I didn't understand it.

Steve 31:42 Yes.

Kunal 31:43 And now I, I do. And almost my memory of them is really the memory of the picture.

Steve 31:48 Yeah.

Kunal 31:48 'Cause again, it's, it's something to provoke us to remember-

Steve 31:52 Yeah

Kunal 31:52 ... these qualities.

Steve 31:53 Yeah. Makes sense. And I, just going back to your relationship piece and the things, and it almost doesn't matter now, so now I've, I've got my train of thought back, and it's a podcast so we can do these things. But you evolve over time with people, and it, it really is like when relationships end it's, it is okay because you are a different person. Like, uh, you know, sitting next to a river, uh, the ... Two, two things are true about a man who sits next to a river. It's not the same man and it's not the same river, right? Like-

Kunal 32:23 Yeah.

Steve 32:23 And, um, and the ... What I've learned through marriage is that as you change, you're constantly working on building that bridge over the river, so to speak, to stick with the analogy.

Kunal 32:34 Yeah.

Steve 32:35 It's always in maintenance mode. It's always in work because you are evolving as people. It's impossible to think that you will stay the same. And-

Kunal 32:43 Yeah

Steve 32:43 ... um, and that's, that's the interesting thing is that you can't hold on to past relationships where you haven't been able to build that bridge because-

Kunal 32:51 Yeah

Steve 32:52 ... it's gonna destroy you both, right? Like, it'll pull you both into, into the river.

Kunal 32:55 Into the river. Yeah.

Steve 32:57 Into the river.

Kunal 32:57 Yeah. Yeah.

Steve 32:57 Um, and so now where, where do you go from here in terms of now that you've put yourself into a how to live, have you developed practice around this other than the experimentation pieces? Has this been like who you are? Now, now I'm minimalist. I don't buy a lot of things. I don't, um, you know, I've got a strong sense of how to trust people. You've got, kind of got this model. Does the model keep growing or is this like the sit?

Kunal 33:22 Well, to your earlier point about change-

Steve 33:25 Yeah

Kunal 33:25 ... I've changed. I, I actually buy a lot of things now.

Steve 33:28 Okay.

Kunal 33:29 As for those of you who haven't read the book, I went two years without buying a single physical object.

Steve 33:34 Yeah.

Kunal 33:34 So I went to one edge, one extreme, and I don't know if I'm on the extreme of consumerism as I was long time ago, but probably somewhere into a medium to high consumer of physical goods.

Steve 33:46 Mm-hmm.

Kunal 33:47 Um, you know, you've been to my, my, my home.

Steve 33:49 Yeah.

Kunal 33:50 Uh, it's not s- uh, the type of place that somebody who's houseless lives in.

Steve 33:55 Yeah. Yeah.

Kunal 33:55 Um, so I, I, I think the key, and we can abstract this, is to not get ... For me it's to not be rigid, it's to not be overly structured. I'm, I'm naturally a structured person.

Steve 34:08 Mm-hmm.

Kunal 34:08 I'm naturally an organized person.

Kunal 34:12 And the book is called How to Live, but it really should be called How I Learned to Live.

Steve 34:17 Yeah.

Kunal 34:17 And so the entire book is written in first person. I don't know if you picked up on this, but the word you doesn't appear once in the entire book.

Steve 34:24 Oh, I didn't pick that up.

Kunal 34:25 And, uh, I doubt you could find a single self-help book-

Steve 34:30 Yes, that doesn't tell you what to do

Kunal 34:32 ... that doesn't ... what to do.

Steve 34:32 All right.

Kunal 34:33 I get triggered when people tell me what to do.

Steve 34:35 Yeah.

Kunal 34:35 Um, my, my, my weekly blog doesn't, uh, have the word you in it, and that's been 10 years.

Steve 34:40 Yeah.

Kunal 34:40 So it's, it's very much sharing how I've learned, and it's not a formula, not even a formula for myself. Uh, definitely it's not a formula for anybody else.

Steve 34:50 Yeah.

Kunal 34:51 And it's more to take people on the journey of the formula is really just to be open and-

Steve 34:57 Yeah

Kunal 34:57 ... to be curious.

Steve 34:58 Yeah. I, I, that's, that's very clear is that, um, hey, open yourself up and don't overly attach to anything. Like, don't overattach to your current state. Don't overattach to things. Don't, don't put so much like sort of emphasis on all of these things and, and raise the importance because at any point in time you can let it all go.

Kunal 35:25 Yeah.

Steve 35:25 And you can decide to change.

Kunal 35:26 Yeah.

Steve 35:26 Like, that was a very clear message. And what I just realized while you were talking to me now is I absolutely triggered you before. When you first moved here, I was like m- my, my, my natural thing is to want to help people, and when you were a new guy here, just moved, I was like, "I wanna be this guy who's gonna make you really happy." I like, I don't know why I took it on myself that way. And I sent you a message like, "Hey, I'm having this thing at my house, and you will come."

Steve 35:55 It was like kind of like- ... it was a, it was an indirect like, like you have to come. I want you to be welcome here and have like people ... Not like you need my help. You- ... you've been excellent at building a massive community around yourself. Yeah. But I realize, and then I got a message back saying, uh, "Yeah, I'll let you know."

Steve 36:15 So it's just like, oh, I definitely triggered this guy.

Steve 36:20 Don't tell Kunal what to do.

Kunal 36:23 That's accurate. Yeah.

Steve 36:24 Yeah.

Kunal 36:24 Yeah. I've been working for myself my whole life.

Steve 36:29 Yeah. That must be hard, like, uh, there's no way back for you to, to work. You can only work with people, but mostly you'd want to lead it. Is that correct?

Kunal 36:38 Yeah, I've been, uh, I've been in a leadership role since I was six years old. So this is book number three.

Steve 36:44 Yeah.

Kunal 36:44 Uh, it's called Chief Everything Officer. So it's a 15-year business memoir of being a CEO of a tech company for 15 years. And, uh, the opening chapter talks about when I was six years old, and most... As you have young kids, like most youn- I have a younger sister a year younger. Most kids play restaurant and kitchen. We played office, and I was the boss. My sister was my secretary. And we had business cards and briefcases and very important meetings. This is me at six.

Steve 37:14 What were the meetings about at six?

Kunal 37:15 I have no idea.

Steve 37:17 We need to lock the inventory and the pantry. There's a massive problem there. We're gonna have to speak to the workers.

Kunal 37:22 So, and I started the family. I have a very large Indian extended family, like over 100 people around the world. Uh, so I started a family newspaper when I was eight called the Family Express, and I was the editor, and I was telling everybody to write articles and send them to me, and that's how I learned how to use Microsoft Word when it first came out.

Steve 37:39 Wow.

Kunal 37:39 And learned word processing, and I was using a computer at eight back in the early '90s.

Steve 37:45 Damn.

Kunal 37:46 And printed it and physically mailed it to the family all over the world. And when I was 10, I joined student government, uh, which is a thing in North America. I've learned in Europe it's not as much of a thing.

Steve 37:56 Yeah.

Kunal 37:56 But I was the class rep representing the class' voice to the principal and the teachers, and, um, did that for 10 years, so.

Steve 38:03 Yeah, you said your first, your first sort of public announcement on the, uh, school intercom-

Kunal 38:08 Yes

Steve 38:08 ... was kind of like a-

Kunal 38:09 Yeah

Steve 38:09 ... it was like a bad one.

Kunal 38:11 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steve 38:12 Yeah.

Kunal 38:12 So I've, uh, I've, I've been in a leadership role for 30 years.

Steve 38:18 That's a, uh, it's a, a... Yeah, I don't know, did that come from your family environment, that, that, that you, you looked up to someone and said, "That's what I wanna be," or was there a moment of clarity? I've, you know, I've had guests on who's, like, um, you know, one of my guests, uh, was on there, and it was like he saw Kofi Annan speak, and he was like, "How did this African guy end up being the head of the UN?"

Kunal 38:43 Mm.

Steve 38:43 And that was a very clear moment, moment of clarity for him, where, "I'm gonna- I wanna be something like that." Or was it just you had this environment where your parents were, like, successful entrepreneurs? What, what was it, do you think?

Kunal 38:56 It was a, a mix of things. Um, so my parents were poor immigrants. They immigrated from India to Canada with nothing a month before I was born, and they, they struggled.

Steve 39:07 Yeah.

Kunal 39:08 They struggled a lot. They still choose to struggle sometimes now, even though they don't need to. And I have to remind them of that often.

Steve 39:15 Yeah.

Kunal 39:16 Um, I think, I think birth order plays a role. That's my justification. So my father is the youngest of 10 siblings.

Steve 39:23 Oh, wow.

Kunal 39:23 My mother, the f- youngest of six, and then my sister, the youngest of two. So they're all babies, basically.

Steve 39:29 Mm.

Kunal 39:30 And I, as the older, as the only older si- sibling in the four of us, I naturally, like, stepped into that space, and I've noticed this. It's so subtle. It's like a millisecond.

Steve 39:45 Mm.

Kunal 39:45 It's like a group standing in front of the elevator and waiting to see who presses the button.

Steve 39:50 Yes.

Kunal 39:50 It's just a millisecond, and the older siblings have an instinct to lean in, and the younger ones have an instinct to just wait to see, does somebody else do it? So that, like, compounded over a long time period.

Steve 40:05 Oh, wow.

Kunal 40:06 Um, I give my parents a lot of credit 'cause they just gave me a lot of space.

Steve 40:10 Yeah.

Kunal 40:10 Um, they didn't tell us, me and my sister, what to do. So my sister, too, equally, uh, bossy like me.

Steve 40:16 Okay.

Kunal 40:17 When her two-year-old starts to be bossy, she's like, "I don't know why he's like this." I'm like, "Why do you think?"

Steve 40:25 Okay.

Kunal 40:25 But my parents, our parents gave us a lot of space.

Steve 40:28 Yeah.

Kunal 40:29 A lot of space to experiment, to explore, to find the edges, to find the boundaries ourselves. They didn't, they didn't tell us what to do.

Steve 40:35 Yeah. I've actually noticed that, um, about Indian families in general, and I don't like to generalize, but living in India, um, you know, met a lot of my colleagues', um, sort of kids. Uh, not sort of kids, they're actual kids. Uh, I, I met them, and I noticed that w- there was a lot more accommodation of their children and their needs.

Kunal 41:00 Mm.

Steve 41:00 The... You know, a temper tantrum wasn't addressed like, "Don't do that."

Kunal 41:05 Yeah.

Steve 41:05 It was like, "Well, you're gonna run that emotional course, and we're still here-

Kunal 41:10 Mm-hmm

Steve 41:10 ... to, like, let you run through that." And, you know, we, there was this, this... The family dynamic's incredible. Like, when I, when I spoke to a lot of people that I was interviewing for roles, like, a big priority in terms of why they wanted this job or wanting to be successful was about supporting their parents. A lot of the, even the, the US-based, um, sort of, uh, Indian folks that have wanted to come back to India were looking for opportunities, uh, were like, "My parents are getting old now." And they, you know, they had really great roles-

Kunal 41:41 Yeah

Steve 41:41 ... in the, you know, the big tech companies in the US, and they're like, "My parents are aging now. It's time for me to come home and take care of them." And I, I... That, for me, was, like, something, like, really inspiring about my time in India, is, like, what that family unit looked like, and it's paying off. Like, if you look at ... Like, India's currently ruling the world in terms of, uh, leadership roles, a- across, like, major corporations-

Kunal 42:06 Yeah

Steve 42:06 ... in government.

Kunal 42:07 Yeah.

Steve 42:07 And that, that's gotta, that's gotta be speak to, like, the really good family dynamics that come out of India.

Kunal 42:11 So you're hoping your kids are gonna do that for you?

Steve 42:13 I hope so. I hope so, 'cause I'm, like, in the startup space as an entrepreneur. I'm gonna be on a burner those startups. I really need them to do well.

Kunal 42:22 I, I think what you're touching on is the communal culture. I, I definitely got a flavor of that living here in Portugal now for two years.

Steve 42:28 Mm.

Kunal 42:28 And India has the communal culture, Spain does, Italy does, China does. Um, Canada does not, America does not, um, the UK does not, Germany does not, France does not. So the more individualistic societies versus the communal societies, the communalists, uh, devalue the whole. The individual is to value the one.

Steve 42:50 Yeah. I, and it, that was a big thing for like m- my wife's family's Portuguese and, and you can definitely feel that actually, and you spoke about it in your book, is that you didn't really need to make friends because you had such a big family dynamic, right? And so every weekend was just full of kids. Like, it was-

Kunal 43:07 Yeah

Steve 43:07 ... completely like that. And I think that was a big rub point for my w- wife and I, is like, "Well, every weekend's at your family's house." Like- ... I wanna do other stuff too, you know? Like-

Kunal 43:16 Yeah.

Steve 43:16 And now I'm like, "Oh, I love it," you know?

Kunal 43:19 Yeah.

Steve 43:19 So it's like you go there, you binge out on a Sunday afternoon- ... you have a great lunch. And then the, like the kids just like absolutely have the best time, and they, they have the best childhood. So it is really, uh, I definitely feel the value of it now.

Kunal 43:32 Yeah. Yeah, I think we're, we're very lucky to be living in Portugal.

Steve 43:35 Yeah. That's true. Um, and then you were speaking just before Web Summit, and I, I took a lot of, uh, a lot of what you were saying at that. Um, and the one specific thing that you said is that, "I came to Portugal to live." Um, you know, you had been working, you've done the work piece-

Kunal 43:51 Yeah

Steve 43:51 ... and now it's about coming here to live. And, um, but what does that mean for your current work? Uh, like how are you placing your work today?

Kunal 43:58 Yeah. The, the truth is, I don't know. I'm, I'm still figuring that out. I at times am more passive as an investor. At other times, I'm active as an operator, and-

Steve 44:08 Mm

Kunal 44:08 ... I, I haven't found that, that balance yet for me at this moment in life.

Steve 44:13 Mm.

Kunal 44:13 Uh, I am single, I wanna start a family, so I'm very... I'm keeping space for that part of my life-

Steve 44:19 Mm

Kunal 44:19 ... where in the past, I didn't. I did not keep space for that. So I'm mindful of new work commitments I take on and to what degree. Uh, but there's an entrepreneur in me, and I say yes to lots of things and-

Steve 44:31 Yeah

Kunal 44:31 ... um, that energy has to come out. Right now it's coming out through writing books, lots of books.

Steve 44:37 Yeah, I did see.

Kunal 44:38 So-

Steve 44:39 Yeah.

Kunal 44:39 That's, that's really like this energy to, to express. You know, in the past, that energy came out through starting businesses, and then in the future it'll be some other shape or form.

Steve 44:49 Mm.

Kunal 44:49 But I think we all have this energy. I have this, a drive, this entrepreneurial spirit, this creativity, and then the shape and form of that I think will just keep changing.

Steve 44:59 Yeah. Um, and just I've noted while you were talking is that you've mentioned that you're single a few times, and we've spoken about relationships, and typically, um, an older guy who's an entrepreneur, who likes to be the leader, battles to find love. Uh, and I think because you are... Not to speak for you, but what I've noticed is that you either go into it with a relationship and it's strong and it gets stronger, or you don't go in and you become quite, quite difficult to date. Um, how, how do you, how do you approach that? How do you address that? Because you've got these kind of conflicting needs, like relationships need time and nurturing, and then so do businesses-

Kunal 45:40 Yeah

Steve 45:40 ... like sort of children.

Kunal 45:41 Well, we should do another podcast with my exes and see, see what they have to say. What they have to say.

Steve 45:50 You can leave me with a list.

Kunal 45:57 I, I think for, for everybody, um, knowing, having clarity of what's important at this given moment in life is, is critical.

Steve 46:05 Mm.

Kunal 46:05 You know, when I was going through a lot of the experiments in how to live, it, it was this curiosity of learning about myself and what do I value, what do I believe. And at certain times it was growing my business, and, uh, currently it's probably my physical health. I've been spending a lot of time on, on physical health, um, relationship, building, you know, connections, building community, you know, getting momentum building and living in Portugal. And so I'm, I'm prioritizing these activities.

Steve 46:31 Yeah.

Kunal 46:32 We can't do it all. Um, like, we can do anything, but we can't do everything.

Steve 46:36 Yeah.

Kunal 46:37 So being able to make those trade-offs, I think life is about making trade-offs, and, and making them consciously and intentionally-

Steve 46:45 Yeah

Kunal 46:45 ... leads to more satisfaction.

Steve 46:47 Yeah. And the, the right relationships actually build a bigger platform for the other things that you want to do, right? Like it becomes like a home base that you say, "Okay, well, I can branch off of this now." And-

Kunal 46:58 Yeah

Steve 46:58 ... I think that that's a quality that you have to kind of give time to, to find and, and grow. Um, I'm gonna change tack a little bit and just talk about the other book that you've written, "2034." It's like a predictive book around AI. I haven't read it at all. I've just finished "How to Live." I'll get to it. Um, but, but AI's a, a baby of yours now. It's like-

Kunal 47:19 Yeah

Steve 47:19 ... it's like a... it's... you've... It's almost like you've taken the AI bull by the horns for Portugal-

Kunal 47:25 Yeah

Steve 47:25 ... and say you're going to establish AI in Portugal. Like, what's the vision for you on this?

Kunal 47:30 Yeah. So I, I, I started ai.pt.

Steve 47:32 Mm.

Kunal 47:33 Uh, and the, the vision there, it's a nonprofit actually, so the vision there is to build community, and it is a give back project for me. You know, as, as expats and foreigners here, I feel like we're the, we're like the typo in Portugal or any expat in any foreign country.

Steve 47:48 Mm-hmm.

Kunal 47:49 Like, we're the, we're the thing that doesn't fully fit, but we're there.

Steve 47:53 Yeah.

Kunal 47:54 Uh, so it's like the extra letter in the word.

Steve 47:56 Yeah.

Kunal 47:57 And I was very intentional in talking to other expats who had moved to Singapore or Dubai, to other countries. I thought, "Okay, like I wanna do something," um, from the start, and that's where ai.pt was born from, is let me contribute. I've built community around tech several times, um, before, university in, in Canada and the really kinda first wave of the tech boom.

Steve 48:19 Mm-hmm.

Kunal 48:20 So I've... I kinda know the playbook and I know how to... I can contribute, and I'm living here, so I wanna feel connected to the space.

Steve 48:27 Yeah.

Kunal 48:27 Um, it's been amazing. It's allowed me to connect with a lot more Portuguese people, uh, people in the tech world, government, corporate, and, um, really understand how the economy and the system works. I have lots of judgments and opinions.

Steve 48:42 Yeah.

Kunal 48:42 I shared some of them that day at the event. Um, so I think there's some challenges relative to other economies and how I see that they work. So I think there's some work to do here in Portugal, but I was on stage at Web Summit last week with... I was the only non-Portuguese person talking about how to build the Portuguese tech ecosystem around AI.

Steve 49:02 Yeah.

Kunal 49:02 And my message was clear, is like, uh, AI is not gonna wait. I feel in Portugal we generally have to learn how to wait.

Steve 49:10 Yeah.

Kunal 49:10 Everything is generally a little slower than we'd like it to be, and it's time to, time to speed up.

Steve 49:16 Yeah.

Kunal 49:16 So it's turning a bit into advocacy as well as community building.

Steve 49:19 So yeah, I've, you know, just to go on the, the Portugal thread a little bit, is that I found that often the, the words don't match the action. So we're talking a big game, but the, the, the team isn't really developed behind the game that we're talking about.

Kunal 49:37 Mm.

Steve 49:37 And so I really like what you're saying about, um, you know, AI.pt and being an ambassador for things. Like, the first piece is that we live here now, we, if we wanna be part of the community, we have to build things for the community too.

Kunal 49:52 Yeah.

Steve 49:52 And so we came here for good opportunities, good lifestyle, great weather, good tax breaks, but now this has to be a part of not just our money, our, you know, sort of our experience-

Kunal 50:04 Yeah

Steve 50:04 ... and our intelligence, and our ability to bring that global knowledge here. And, um, and what I hope is that what you're doing gets supported internally as much. It's like you said, like, "Hey, that's a really good initiative, and here is the money and the resources behind that to make sure that this thing absolutely-"

Kunal 50:23 Yeah

Steve 50:23 ... "absolutely flies."

Kunal 50:24 Yeah. I hope so too.

Steve 50:26 Yeah.

Kunal 50:27 Yeah. It does require... Like, we don't always know a good thing when we see it. So that's the, the question mark I have.

Steve 50:36 Are you talking about in, in terms of, uh, people acknowledging AI is a good thing?

Kunal 50:41 Yeah, acknow- or, or different people like me who are starting different projects. There's a number of, with different focuses.

Steve 50:48 Yeah.

Kunal 50:48 And we're even just foreigners coming to Portugal.

Steve 50:51 Yeah.

Kunal 50:51 You know, in the time that, that we've been here, for me, the last two and a half years, I, I've seen the attitude and the tide shift, uh, not in a-

Steve 51:00 Positive way

Kunal 51:00 ... positive way.

Steve 51:01 Yeah. It's becoming like a political attack vector, right?

Kunal 51:03 And short term, it's okay, whatever, but medium term, it's gonna have big consequences-

Steve 51:10 Yeah

Kunal 51:11 ... when if foreigners don't keep coming, don't keep bringing their smarts, you know, and their money-

Steve 51:16 Yeah

Kunal 51:16 ... to develop. And, you know, Portugal 10 years ago was nowhere. It wasn't on the map.

Steve 51:23 Yeah.

Kunal 51:24 Uh, tourism now put it on the map. The hotels were built. Infrastructure was fixed. And, uh, I feel there's a risk that the tide shifts and some other Southern European, or Eastern European, or some other place becomes the hot spot, and then two, three years from now, new government in place, anti-foreigner policies, which is what we've seen for the last six months-

Steve 51:49 Yeah

Kunal 51:49 ... pretty heavy, um, will have costs. I realize, like, there's not enough of a local economy-

Steve 51:57 Yeah

Kunal 51:57 ... to invest in infrastructure.

Steve 51:59 Yeah. So we have to work fast, right? Like, you have to beat, you have to beat that narrative, right? Like, AI.pt being successful quickly and proving itself-

Kunal 52:09 Yeah

Steve 52:09 ... is, is a critical thing.

Kunal 52:10 There's, there's work to do. So yesterday I spoke at Nova University. It was our first AI.pt event on campus, and I always love spending time with students. And a lot of people spent time with me when I was a student, so I feel a strong affinity to give back.

Steve 52:24 Yeah.

Kunal 52:24 So 150, 200 students in the auditorium for the whole afternoon talking about AI. Had six, seven speakers. Gave everybody a copy of the book, and then at, at the end, five, six students came up to me saying, "How do I get a job in Canada?"

Steve 52:38 Uh, that's not good.

Kunal 52:39 And I was like- This is the, the engineering students in their fourth year of university. And I was like, "Why? Just work here."

Steve 52:45 Yeah.

Kunal 52:46 They're like, "No, no, no. Tell me, like, who can you introduce me to in Canada?"

Steve 52:49 Yeah. Now, that's, that's something that Tim Vieira sort of kind of spoke about, is like, our kids are leaving because they think that the opportunities are bigger out there, and that's why he's running for president. He said, "I wanna build the opportunities-

Kunal 53:02 Yeah

Steve 53:03 ... here." And, um, and I think that in terms of quality of people, education levels, those are all really good, so we have to create the platforms here for those things to, for, for people to have the opportunity to believe that here is viable, here's a, here's a good option.

Kunal 53:20 The raw ingredients are there.

Steve 53:21 Yeah.

Kunal 53:22 The raw ingredients are definitely there.

Steve 53:23 Very well said. Yeah.

Kunal 53:24 Um, but they have to be put together, and there's changes, and, like, work has to be done. And, uh, you know, what happened a few weeks ago with the, the prime minister is not good.

Steve 53:34 Yeah. Just so anyone who's not from Portugal, like, the Prime Minister of Portugal has resigned under corruption, uh, scandal.

Kunal 53:43 It's a bag with €75,000 of cash that was found in his home.

Steve 53:46 In his home, right? And, uh-

Kunal 53:48 Not a good look.

Steve 53:48 Not a good look, exactly. And I'll tell you what disappointed me, like, about that, is that I moved from South Africa- ... where corruption in our government is so bad. And then I see this in the news, and I'm like, "Come on, guys." "We know better." Like, this is... Come on, we're in Europe here.

Kunal 54:07 Yeah.

Steve 54:07 Like, what is going on? You know, it's like, I'm so disappointed. And then the Swedish are all crying because their prime minister built a deck. Just relax. Like, it's a deck. Mm.

Kunal 54:20 So, you know, the... You know, I've, I've got- I'm a real estate investor, and I have a few projects, and one of them has to involve the courts now, and the rule of law is not as strong here. I'm learning firsthand. Coming from Canada-

Steve 54:34 Yeah

Kunal 54:34 ... you realize how spoiled we are.

Steve 54:36 Yeah.

Kunal 54:37 Um, so these types of things have to change for people to have trust.

Steve 54:43 Yeah. So they, they, they will be consequence to the bad players, right?

Kunal 54:48 Yeah. And the just inefficient players.

Steve 54:51 Yeah.

Kunal 54:52 Um, things take years.

Steve 54:55 Yeah.

Kunal 54:55 So it just doesn't- Lead to a system that's there to support the growth and development of the economy.

Steve 55:02 Yeah. Yeah, makes sense. Um, just on your AI piece, now you've enabled yourself with a bot. So I've engaged with your, your bot last night. I had a-

Kunal 55:14 What did you, what did you ask? So it's kanalgpt.com.

Steve 55:17 K- kanalg- gpt.com. And, um, we started having a conversation about AI. So I asked a question and I'll, I'll go back and check the question, but immediately it came back and asked me a question. I'm like, "You clever guy." Like, this is a great way of like-

Kunal 55:31 I programed that in-

Steve 55:32 Yeah

Kunal 55:32 ... to make it conversational.

Steve 55:33 Yeah, but also I thought it's a very clever way to gather data on like- ... great ways to grow AI, you know? Like, I, so I thought it was incredible. So, so it's... it, it starts with, "Hello, my friend. My name is Kanal. Send me a message below to chat about anything." I said, "Hey, Kanal, is this the j- digital distillation and representation of Kanal or actually Kanal?" And he said, "Ah, the digital age, where we can be in two places at once." "Let's just say I'm here to share Kanal's thoughts and insights. Now, how can I assist you today?" And then I wrote, "You've written two books, correct?" And then it goes, "Yes, indeed, I've penned, uh," two books. And it goes into, it's like, "What's on your mind?" And I said, "What about your book on AI?" It's like, "Oh, you're referring to 2034." So it was, like, really engaging, but by the end of it, we had developed a way to enable AI in, in farming communities in Africa, helping them, uh, build- ...

Steve 56:25 uh, helping them build, um-

Kunal 56:27 You're welcome.

Steve 56:29 Yeah. No, I mean, we came up with a name for it. It's like, "What do you think?" It like... It sort of asked me, "What do you think the name for this project should be?" I'm like, "We'll call it Dream Catcher." It's like, I love that. So I was like... And my wife comes home and says like, "What are you doing?" Like, "Especially we came because we're ready for bed." Like, "Oh, I'm just chatting to Kanal," kind of.

Kunal 56:46 You are.

Steve 56:47 Yeah.

Kunal 56:47 I get a screenshot at least once a day from a friend-

Steve 56:50 Ah, it's amazing

Kunal 56:51 ... saying I'm talking to you.

Steve 56:53 Yeah, it's amazing.

Kunal 56:54 Yeah.

Steve 56:54 And so, so what, what is it for you? Is it just living the, living the brand? Or what are you enabling by bringing AI as a, having a bot for yourself?

Kunal 57:05 It's an experiment.

Steve 57:07 Okay.

Kunal 57:07 Yeah. I'm fascinated by the technology in this moment. The reason I wrote 2034, it's 10 years into the future, but looking back at the last 10 years. So it's a book about the future, but written in past tense.

Steve 57:19 Okay.

Kunal 57:20 Uh, so I also have something unique in my writing style. Like, this book doesn't have the word you in it. 2034 is a past tense book about the future.

Steve 57:27 Okay.

Kunal 57:28 So it messes with you on purpose. It's essentially a prompt for humans.

Steve 57:33 Okay.

Kunal 57:33 It's what we're prompting AI. You're gonna read this book, and uh, you're gonna be forced to think about things-

Steve 57:39 Yeah

Kunal 57:39 ... and really about change and how open you are to change.

Steve 57:43 I, I, I actually like that about your writing in, in general is that I, I, I've read one book, but I felt really, like, activated. I was like, "Okay, this is, this is thought-provoking," and, you know, there was a lot of introspection of what you're saying. So, and even with your bot, I felt that it made me question things. And again, going back to what we were s- talking about in the beginning, is articulating our thoughts on things. Like, uh, what do I think about AI? What do I really think about it?

Kunal 58:11 Yeah.

Steve 58:11 That came out.

Kunal 58:12 Yeah.

Steve 58:12 You know? So it was very good sort of exchange for me because I was really like... I think that AI is going to enable people, but you always get two buckets of people. You get people who will cry foul and be a victim, and you'll be- get people who say, "This is a massive enabler." And the enablers will move forward with things, and the, the people who are crying foul will stay in the same bucket.

Kunal 58:34 And those buckets would exist if it was the government, if it was-

Steve 58:37 You know, it's always there

Kunal 58:38 ... mobile phones, if it was whatever the technology, or whatever the change is.

Steve 58:43 Yeah.

Kunal 58:44 In the face of change, what is... Uh, anybody who's listening to this or watching this, what is your instinctual response? And then are you happy with that response?

Steve 58:53 Yeah. That's it, right? Like, n- no, and it's not AI thing, it's everything. And you, you often stand in front of a room of people, and you can very clearly see, uh, even just talking to salespeople, this person is gonna run with it-

Kunal 59:08 Yeah

Steve 59:09 ... and this person will not.

Kunal 59:10 Yeah.

Steve 59:11 And, you know, you can come and say, "I'm gonna give you a new commission structure that's way better, but you're gonna have to take a step back in this commission structure today." And the competitive, I'm-gonna-go-after-its will immediately be like done. And, uh, and then you can sort of very clearly see the ones who are gonna be like, "No, out. Big problem." So it, it's just... I think it's... I don't know if it's human nature or if it's just, like, a defensive mechanism that everybody can overcome.

Kunal 59:45 I think it's conditioning. I think it's, it's, uh, it's, it's nurture.

Steve 59:49 Okay.

Kunal 59:49 It's the environment. If we see, if we grew up around people who are inspiring and show those attitudes and behaviors, then we start to demonstrate those attitudes and behaviors-

Steve 60:01 Yeah

Kunal 60:01 ... in all dimensions.

Steve 60:03 Yeah. Um, I really enjoyed talking to you. Like, uh, I'm gonna start wrapping up now, but what's next now? So what are the big things that you want to get out? Like, um, I'm expecting way more books to come out of you, but, like, what are the big projects and where can we find you?

Kunal 60:19 You can talk to me anytime you want, 24/7.

Steve 60:22 K- Kanal-

Kunal 60:22 kanalgpt.com

Steve 60:23 ... gpt.com. Yeah.

Kunal 60:25 Yeah. But it's an experiment. You know, maybe I'll say something inappropriate and- ... shut it down one day. But right now it's an experiment.

Steve 60:33 No, at least they can only cancel your bot and not you.

Kunal 60:36 Yes.

Steve 60:36 But-

Kunal 60:36 Yes.

Kunal 60:40 Um, I am... Yeah, I'm really inspired to, to, to share, to share with the world, share more of myself.

Steve 60:47 Mm.

Kunal 60:47 That means my, my experiences, that means my ideas for the future, um, that means my practices. And it's a, it's a vulnerable step for me to choose to be known and choose to step into that, and I encourage people to disagree. I encourage people to choose for themselves what makes sense for them.

Steve 61:05 Mm.

Kunal 61:06 I, I think you'll see everything I'm sharing is from a first-person perspective, and it's what I think, what I believe, and everybody's free to make their own, their own choices.

Steve 61:15 Yeah. Makes sense. Thanks very much for being here today.

Kunal 61:17 Thank you.

Steve 61:18 Awesome. Cheers.